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PostPosted: 07 Mar 2018, 10:44 

Joined: 07 Apr 2008, 11:50
Posts: 4256
Benguela wrote:
The mystery deepens, because, on Defenceweb, another poster says that the total value of the deal is 5 billion. Surely that can't be right!

The DAFF ship Sarah Baartman cost 150 million. I know this was thirteen years ago, but all the same.

I think these 6211's look quite good as an IPV... as long as the price is a whole lot less than 5 billion! Maybe the comma was in the wrong place and it's really 500 million? That would make a degree of sense but, still, for 500 million, you could have bought 3 x Sarah Baartman's in 2005. And the Sarah Baartman at least has a flight deck (no hangar).


But these 6211s are to be OPVs, not IPVs. Thus they are hopelessly inadequate; no helicopter and arguably too lightly armed.

The Baartman is a basic boat, there's not much sophisticated technology in it; no weapons, basic COTS radar, etc. The hull is also not built to naval standards of damage tollerance, redundancy of systems, and so on. There is a saying in naval shipbuilding: "Steel is cheap and air is free" meaning that the ship itself is not the high cost item - it's the weapons and other technology that is put in the hull that really pushes up the price.


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PostPosted: 07 Mar 2018, 15:45 

Joined: 17 Apr 2009, 11:43
Posts: 168
Well, Roger: hands up, I'm rapidly going off the idea that this is a good purchase. So I'm joining you there! :smt023

But for Project Biro, we need something very cheap and cheerful. If it is built to civilian standards, so be it. Because these are supposed to be patrol vessels, after all. We've got the expensive stuff (i.e. the Valour Class and the subs). And look where that got us. Too expensive to maintain. Too expensive to send to sea for routine patrolling tasks.

With the Project Biro order we can't play fantasy fleets. We have to have hulls in the water and have to have a presence out there at sea where it matters. The level of spec of the DAFF vessels are completely fine for that (except: Sarah Baartman needs a hangar). You might remember I'm the only guy on this forum who thought it was a good idea to get the DAFF vessels integrated into the navy... into a sort of coast guard squadron... but I never convinced anyone back then! :roll:

The SAN has always turned up its nose at the coast guard job but it's time to face the fact that we can either (1) hold on by our fingertips to the status of a blue water navy with a lot of ships in Simon's Town harbour or (2) accept that the best job we can do for the Republic is to step into the gap left by the fact that we don't have a coast guard.

Treasury are never in a million years going to give us any more money, so we just have to decide what is the best job we can do with the money we have.

Which is why I'm so puzzled by the 5 billion price tag. How can they possibly spend 5 billion on 3 x IPV's? The original 'corvette' order was only 6.9 billion and inflation doesn't explain all of the difference. The Royal Navy are building 3 x 2,000 ton patrol vessels for 5.5 billion rand. So this is either another colossal piece of corruption or a mistake and the order is not worth 5 billion after all. At the moment I'm praying it's the latter and am waiting to hear more about the price tag. Definitely one for a question in parliament.


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PostPosted: 07 Mar 2018, 18:36 

Joined: 07 Apr 2008, 11:50
Posts: 4256
Keep in mind that in 1998 (when the "Arms Deal" was done) the exchange rate was between 5 and 6 Rand to the US$.

The Sarah Baartman cost US$19 million.

At the current rate the R5 billion for the three Damen 6211 OPVs comes to $140 million each.


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PostPosted: 08 Mar 2018, 14:52 

Joined: 17 Apr 2009, 11:43
Posts: 168
Exactly.

19 million USD in 2005 dollars is about 23.5 million USD in 2018 dollars. (US inflation has been running at 2 - 3 percent in the period.)

So now we're paying 140 million USD for each of these smaller Biro IPV's?

If it's true (and I'm still wondering whether it is true) it is completely and utterly mad. I hope someone looks into the price of this order for us.


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PostPosted: 08 Mar 2018, 15:13 
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Joined: 01 Oct 2004, 14:33
Posts: 3046
Benguela wrote:
Exactly.

19 million USD in 2005 dollars is about 23.5 million USD in 2018 dollars. (US inflation has been running at 2 - 3 percent in the period.)

So now we're paying 140 million USD for each of these smaller Biro IPV's?

If it's true (and I'm still wondering whether it is true) it is completely and utterly mad. I hope someone looks into the price of this order for us.


Well(ONE) torpedo was priced at R60mil as in another thread for our navy,$140mil in my opinion is still quite steep!Must be really a quality product then?!We not the ones making the decisions or getting under table money,so we have no say really..it is what it is!!..

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PostPosted: 09 Mar 2018, 10:10 
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Joined: 21 Apr 2010, 09:51
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Location: cape town
Some further progress...

[url][/https://navaltoday.com/2018/03/05/sa-shipyards-to-construct-south-african-navys-new-hydrographic-survey-vessel/url]

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PostPosted: 09 Mar 2018, 15:21 

Joined: 03 Dec 2013, 15:20
Posts: 173
Location: Cape Town/Quebec
Roger the Dodger wrote:

But these 6211s are to be OPVs, not IPVs.


No they're not. DefenceWeb admitted it got it's "O"s and "I"s mixed up in that report.


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PostPosted: 10 Mar 2018, 08:02 

Joined: 07 Apr 2008, 11:50
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Jean Racine wrote:
Roger the Dodger wrote:

But these 6211s are to be OPVs, not IPVs.


No they're not. DefenceWeb admitted it got it's "O"s and "I"s mixed up in that report.


Correct!
These 6211s are intended to be IPV's, very big ones...


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PostPosted: 10 Mar 2018, 08:12 

Joined: 07 Apr 2008, 11:50
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Airfire wrote:
Benguela wrote:
Exactly.

19 million USD in 2005 dollars is about 23.5 million USD in 2018 dollars. (US inflation has been running at 2 - 3 percent in the period.)

So now we're paying 140 million USD for each of these smaller Biro IPV's?

If it's true (and I'm still wondering whether it is true) it is completely and utterly mad. I hope someone looks into the price of this order for us.


Well(ONE) torpedo was priced at R60mil as in another thread for our navy,$140mil in my opinion is still quite steep!Must be really a quality product then?!We not the ones making the decisions or getting under table money,so we have no say really..it is what it is!!..


R60 mil is a reasonable price for a modern heavyweight torpedo such as the Seehecht, it's only about US$5 mil.
Keep in mind how our exchange rate has dropped over the years.


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PostPosted: 14 Mar 2018, 15:21 

Joined: 14 Feb 2008, 08:36
Posts: 311
Benguela wrote:
Exactly.

19 million USD in 2005 dollars is about 23.5 million USD in 2018 dollars. (US inflation has been running at 2 - 3 percent in the period.)

So now we're paying 140 million USD for each of these smaller Biro IPV's?

If it's true (and I'm still wondering whether it is true) it is completely and utterly mad. I hope someone looks into the price of this order for us.


It is also quite possible that the quoted R5 billion amount includes an extensive training and maintenance package for a number of years.


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