The SAAF Forum

The way I read the original Millenium "wish list" and the relevant parts of DR2012, the requirement is basically for an LPD that can deliver a fully equipped battalion "over the beach" and then remain on station nearby to act as a brigade-level command centre, field hospital and provide initial logistic and materiel support. This means it needs more troop carrying capacity than the abovementioned fleet support types, and more materiel capacity than a simple "landing ship". This is what makes the Mistral class so attractive, the full requirement is achieved in a single hull. If we go for a "simpler" landing dock type it means a replenisher must follow fairly closely (no more than two or three days behind) that would be very difficult to do if the coastal water is still hostile. Then it follows that to dominate the area the expedition would need armed helicopters capable of removing the threat of small boats and coastal defence craft. But if your LPD has only two helicopter spots, there is no room for an attack chopper. The only way an effective marine expedition can be exacuted with such "light" shipping is if the initial airborne element is big enough to take and secure a suitable harbour for long enough to unload at least the first mechanised batallion.

"Replenisher" as you call it will follow anyway if the ship, or any other vessels for that matter, has to remain in the area for an extended period of time. The fact that some believe you can use an LPD/LPH to support other naval forces for long periods is not realistic and not possible. They just don't carry enough fuel if they have a dock. The MISTRAL class themselves as with other vessels only has an endurance of about 40 days without refueling. Anything they give to anybody else will reduce this significantly. As I said everybody would love a Mistral but there is the wishlist and then there is the reality and then the available budget. Also believe me hiding a ship out there is not that difficult depending on which environment you operate in and how you operate. Secondly depending on the size of the operation other decks will be available. I indicated that for the normal "day to day" African operations 2 to 3 spots is sufficient. For the more serious stuff you will have 2 ships of class plus a replenishment vessel/vessels, frigates, submarines and whatever else one wants to throw into the mix.

Romeo Yankee, I noticed you use "meters" when you refer to dimensions, and "tons" when you refer the the ship displacement or fuel consumption.
Is that what the SAN uses for mass, the imperial measurement? Asking out of curiosity.

Whereas what you say, may be correct, i dont think that all these requirements is what SAN are looking for.
SAN does not have to be at sea for long times. They VERY seldom are.

I remember the mid 90s, SAN ships used to be out of South Africa for 6-8 months, often.
(remember - same support ship, DKB, strikecraft and/or submarines).
These days they are only away for 2-3 months, max. Besides Operation Copper of course.
They are getting OPV's, IPV's, new hydrographic vessel and in the near future, have to replace Drakkies.

From my reading and following of the SAN, they perform a supporting and relationship building/maintaining role.
Often participating in excercises and courtesy port calls. Now and then a mediating role.

So, realistically, once we have all the abovementioned vessels (highlighted), i think the SAN will have a well rounded fleet for it's role and requirements.
Remember, they might not even sell or scrap Drakkies and Protea. For all we know...they could convert them into some sort of landing ship(s)...well at least Drakkies.

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Roshan Bachan

Rosh I don't know where you get the 6 to 8 months in the 90's but that is not true.The longest deployment in the 90's for DRAKENSBERG was around 3 months (18 May to 18 August 1994) when she visited 10 countries and 12 ports. Apart for one or two overseas deployments with DRAKENSBERG the smaller ships in general spent even less time away. And almost all were visits. That was also prior to the country casting its eyes north and wanting to be a regional player. The 2000's and the present have been much busier with much longer operational deployments in and around the continent and even as far as Haiti in 2003. There is a big difference. The SAN is extremely busy with the limited resources they have. COPPER in general has been three month deployments with some longer. DRAKENSBERG from even prior to the World Cup in 2010 (May 2010) until June 2012 spent 369 days away from Simon's Town of which 321 were at sea including 76 days continuous at sea during Operation COPPER. To try and convert DRAKENSBERG to a major cargo carrying role will require major changes and big money. She has her limitations like all ships. Might as well buy a new ship.

Displacement my spelling error (tonnes).

Thanks. I know distance is Nautical miles and speed in knots

Just as you have 'first hand' experience, so do I.
My dad was onboard DKB for most of the 90s. I know very well how often he was away from home due to trips, thank you.

Again, besides Copper, what is the SAN busy with? What is keeping them 'extremely busy'?
They are going to get IPV and OPVs. So, that will relieve the frigates and DKB on filling in, in that area of responsibility.

The 4 frigates, 3 Submarines, DKB (plus eventual replacement), Protea (plus replacement), will be free to do global duties. 11 Ships at least. not even counting the MCMV's.
There is no point in 'just buying a new ship'.
It is all nice to build a fleet of many ships. We as enthusiasts, would love that!
In reality though, we don't have a real need for an ambitious vessel. A major cargo carrying role. Helicopter carrier. We dont have the manpower.

Let's be realistic about what the SAN NEEDS and WANTS, not what we want.

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Roshan Bachan

Here's an interesting pdf (524k), from Scientia Militaria - South African Journal of Military Studies.

SAS Drakensberg's first 25 years - The life and times of the SA navy's foremost grey diplomat, 1987 - 2012.
http://groundshout.co.za/misc/drakensberg/97396-254168-1-PB.pdf

Just to give some context to Romeo Yankee's first hand experience ... he has been the Officer Commanding / Captain, of both the SAS Outeniqua and SAS Drakensberg

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Brent Best

Thanks Brent, for that insight!
In that case, I apologise for sharing my memories regarding DKB trips.
For some reason, I remember it being much longer than 3 months though.

PS. Captain Barnard, Marais, Myers or Potgieter?

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Roshan Bachan

Thank you for that pdf kremlin. I did so find some interesting things out.

Thanks for this Kremlin. Interestingly, after reading this I found more info on the 2011 Cote d'Ivoire mission in a US Naval Academy paper assessing SA naval capabilities than on any SA site. Apparently SAAF and SF were also involved, disembarked in both Ghana and Liberia ready to go in and evacuate SA embassy staff and civilians if the need arose.

What is the biggest ship the SAN has ever operated? SAS Outeniqua?

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A plan is simply a basis for change.

SAS TAFELBERG was the largest. 170,3 meters and 25 300 tonnes full load displacement.
SAS OUTENIQUA. 166,8 meters and 21 025 tonnes full load displacement.

None of the above.