The SAAF Forum
http://www.saairforce.co.za/forum/

Researching aircraft of 1st, 12th and 24th Sqn during WWII
http://www.saairforce.co.za/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2645		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  cheruskerarmin [ 23 Jun 2010, 20:53 ]
Post subject:  Researching aircraft of 1st, 12th and 24th Sqn during WWII
Hi,

researching the Hawker Hurricanes of 1st Sqn SAAF as well as the Bostons MkIIIs of 12th and 24th Sqns SAAF during the western desert campaign 1941 - 1942 i came across these forums and registered immediately. Informations/photographs on these aircraft/units of the desert air force are very, very scarce. Special books on these subjects are either long out of print or very expensive for making some profiles and some Il-2 Sturmovik 1946 flight sim skins.
So i collected bits and pieces from countless different sources in books and the web but even after six months i didn't found very much so far. Email enquiries to the SAAF museum and the SA military museums weren't replied.

Perhaps anyone of you can help in answering these questions:

- When did the 1st SAAF receive their first MkIIa hurricanes, MkIIbs and MkIIcs? Dates are differing a lot depending on source. Where can i find/get copies of original photographs of these
aircraft (except connell's website 1st SAAF, which i already know) ? Any information regarding paintschemes, codes and serials is very useful.
- When exactly did the 1st SAAF switched from single aircraft letters to full AX-(A-Z) codes?

- Regarding the 12th and 24th Sqn SAAF Bostons i would like to know when they used/switched the different codes, from single aircraft letters (white?/black?/red?) to full squadron codes.
Some profiles are showing these Bostons with RAF roundels (red centre instead of orange), ist htis simply an error or did the Bostons use RAF roundel? I do own some photographs and a
lot of colour profiles which are varying a lot. If you can help with informations and photographs it is very appreciated!

Perhaps you know where i can obtain such detailed information?

Thank you very much for your help
and best wishes

Armin
Author:  Kremlin [ 24 Jun 2010, 00:20 ]
Post subject:  Re: Researching aircraft of 1st, 12th and 24th Sqn during WW
Welcome to the forum Armin :smt023

cheruskerarmin wrote:
- When did the 1st SAAF receive their first MkIIa hurricanes, MkIIbs and MkIIcs?
According to the book Squadrons of the SAAF by Steven Mclean:

"On 30th September (1941) the squadron began receiving Hurricane Mk II's, having bid farewell to the last of the battle-weary Mk I's by the time operation Crusader was launched on 18th November."

"On 30th August (1942) the Axis army advanced in an attempt to outflank the Alamein defensive line, 1 Squadron managing two inconclusive contacts while flying escort to reconnaisance hurricanes before the offensive was checked and then beaten back from 3rd Sepember in what became known as the battle of Alam el halfa. The war on the ground now entered a tense static period as the opposing armies feverishly re-equipped for the decisive battle both knewe must surely come. In preperation 1 squadron received Hurricane MkIIC's to replace the weary A & B variants and moved to LG154 on 26th September."

N° 1 Squadron Hurricane's Mk1 in 1941 & MkIIc in 1942
Image
Image Source: AJ Press - Monografie Lotnicze 54 - Hawker Hurricane (Part 4)

As far as I understand all SAAF aircraft did have the orange centre to the roundel, however as the aircraft were delivered from RAF units, it is likely that they were delivered with the RAF roundel & possibly were not altered by the SAAF squadrons immediately.

Cheers
Author:  Dean [ 24 Jun 2010, 08:33 ]
Post subject:  Re: Researching aircraft of 1st, 12th and 24th Sqn during WW
The following is an extract from “A portrait of Military Aviation in Southern Africa" by Ron Belling:

Quote:
Hawker Hurricane II
About a quarter of the aircraft at 7 air Depot were finished in Dark Earth, Middle Stone and Azure, 60 per cent in Dark Green, Dark Earth and Azure or Sky Blue (SAAF ‘B’), and the remainder Brown or Green overall. The spinners were Dark Green, Dark Earth or Yellow. The B, C and C1 roundels were a mixture of RAF and SAAF types with the correct BS Blue, Red or Orange, while others used the paler SAAF Insignia Blue ‘AA’. Yellow operational trainer bands were applied to the wings and fuselage aft of the roundel, and a Yellow rectangle ahead the insignia. The squadron code letters were applied to the rectangle and the aircraft letter or number to the band in Black.
The last Hurricanes to serve with the SAAF were finished in BS Dark Earth upper surfaces and Sky undersides, with a large serial number applied in White aft of the fuselage roundel. C and C1 roundels were worn, with fin flashes of non-standard proportions.

Douglas A-20 Boston III
When delivered to the RAF, most Bostons were finished in Dark Green and Dark Earth with Sky undersides. In the case of aircraft operating in the Middle East the Dark Green was overpainted with Middle Stone according to Air Ministry Directive AMO A 926/40. Although officially introduced only later, Azure Blue replaced the Sky undersides. Roundels were of the B and A1 type, with standard fin flashes, while the White code letter positioned aft of the fuselage was repeated in a smaller version aft of the nose glazing.
Author:  Doug [ 24 Jun 2010, 12:05 ]
Post subject:  Re: Researching aircraft of 1st, 12th and 24th Sqn during WW
Re 12 Sqdn BOSTON conversion date:

"On 23rd Dec 1941, the last raid to be made with the MARYLAND aircraft was carried out, after which the a/c were handed over to 21 sqdn.
12 Sqdn had completed 732 sorties with these a/c; and were now retired to the Delta for conversion to the BOSTONS. Towards the end of Feb, 1942 the Sqdn, now re-equipped, was ordered to LG21, at Daba, and commenced preparations for a new operational programme. Major J.J. Nash, A.F.C., now acted as Commanding Officer, Lt Col Bosch, A.F.C. having returned to the Union. LG 21 was shared with 24 sqdn."
(Source: 'Theirs is the Glory' the story of 12 Sqdn: Stuart N McCreath)
Author:  cheruskerarmin [ 24 Jun 2010, 14:13 ]
Post subject:  Re: Researching aircraft of 1st, 12th and 24th Sqn during WW
Hi,

thank you very much for your replies!!

@kremlin

Great to get a concrete date when 1st SAAF received MkIIs (a-type). The colour profiles are wellknown to me,
they are some of the very few available. Gaynor's Hurricane IIc is dated (original photograph) indeed from september 1942.

In comparison, just as one example amongst several, see this statement regarding Friedrich Körner's shotdown and capture on july 4th of 1942:


On 4 July 1942, exactly one year to the day after his arrival in the desert, Körner scrambled in Bf 109 F-4trop (W.Nr. 8696) “Red 9” on a mission to intercept a formation of enemy bombers. Before he could reach the bombers he was intercepted by a flight of South African Hurricane IIC fighters. At 1330, Körner was forced to take to his parachute and was promptly captured by enemy ground forces to remain a prisoner of war in Canada until 1947. His victor was South African ace Lieutenant Lawrence Waugh (6 confirmed, 2 probable and 4 damaged victories) of 1 SAAF Squadron.

(from 'Aces of the Luftwaffe' - Friedrich Körner)

Another statement, which i don't recall exactly where it is from, said:

...Körner was brought down by a 20 mm cannon armed hurricane flown by SAAF ace Lawrence Waugh...


Regarding the use of SAAF/RAF roundels i heard the same from other
historians/researchers. THX!!

@Dean

The hurricane MkII paintscheme description refers mainly to the OTU (operational training units in Port Elizabeth and Waterkloof) hurricanes, not to those serving in the field (desert air force). They all were painted middlestone/dark earth, RAF desert scheme A and B pattern with countless variations, and azure blue undersurfaces (in the period late 1941 - 1942, prior to this sky undersurfaces and green camos were used). THX, especially for the info on the Boston code letter, this was
new to me!!


@Doug

Thanks a lot for the conversion date information. It was new to me.


Hope to get some more details the next days.
Best wishes to you all!

Armin
Germany
Author:  cheruskerarmin [ 24 Jun 2010, 19:25 ]
Post subject:  Re: Researching aircraft of 1st, 12th and 24th Sqn during WW
Did edit my last post, therefore this posting for those who did already read it before updating.
Author:  cheruskerarmin [ 07 Jul 2010, 15:35 ]
Post subject:  Re: Researching aircraft of 1st, 12th and 24th Sqn during WW
@Kremlin

Do you own Mclean's book?
There are aircraft serials of No. 1 sqn hurricanes in it, would it be possible to post (or pm) them here?

Is anything mentioned regarding red wingtips? Some photographs of Hurricanes?

THX a lot!
Author:  Kremlin [ 07 Jul 2010, 20:19 ]
Post subject:  Re: Researching aircraft of 1st, 12th and 24th Sqn during WW
I'll have a look in Mclean's book again. There are however, a lot of serials in "85 years of SAAF" by Winston Brent.

Give me your e-mail address & I'll send you some stuff. :D

Cheers
Author:  cheruskerarmin [ 08 Jul 2010, 20:42 ]
Post subject:  Re: Researching aircraft of 1st, 12th and 24th Sqn during WW
Thank you very much, have send a pm to you!
Author:  Kremlin [ 08 Jul 2010, 21:34 ]
Post subject:  Re: Researching aircraft of 1st, 12th and 24th Sqn during WW
E-mails sent.

I'm still have not seen anything on red wingtips though.

Cheers
Page 1 of 1 All times are UTC + 2 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
https://www.phpbb.com/