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PostPosted: 07 Jun 2010, 08:41 
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There also appear to be the remnants of an enemy strapped to the left rear wheel arch in picture 3. I assume that this would be brought back to the rear for intel / fingerprinting purposes.

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PostPosted: 07 Jun 2010, 10:57 
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eesh, I thought it was a great pic showing the cammo ... did not see that. I'll remove the pic.

I doubt it would be for fingerprinting purposes though .. more like sending out a deadly message to the locals if you ask me.

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PostPosted: 07 Jun 2010, 11:52 

Joined: 23 Dec 2006, 06:12
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Kremlin wrote:
eesh, I thought it was a great pic showing the cammo ... did not see that. I'll remove the pic.

I doubt it would be for fingerprinting purposes though .. more like sending out a deadly message to the locals if you ask me.

Cheers


Read the blog referred to in the thread about the bush war. There you will get an idea about the situation on the ground. From the description in the blog it sounds more as if the combatants took it upon themselves to sort of clear the battlefield of human remains as far as possible by the means at their disposal. They had no special hearses for the purpose; only their combat vehicles. What would you have done if you were them? Maybe you got the types who wanted to give the locals a message. When I were there we were explicitly requested to treat the local population with respect and help them where we can. I was personnaly tasked with taking a military truck to help a PB (plaaslike bevolking) who got stuck in a ditch with his pickup truck to save his merchandise and pull his truck out of the ditch and help him and his family back on the road again. That we did with pleasure.

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PostPosted: 07 Jun 2010, 12:04 

Joined: 19 Oct 2005, 12:39
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Some bodies were brought back for Intel purposes and the only place on a Casspir is the mudguards.

There just is no space inside the vehicle to put a body, plus you would have to stand on it as it would have to go on the floor between the seats which is only about a body in width itself.

Then bodily fluids (blood etc) would get everywhere and smell the place out in the heat.

Koevoet got a real load of bad press for the bodies being carried in this manner.


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PostPosted: 07 Jun 2010, 13:43 
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I believe Koevoet was a highly disciplined & extremely effective fighting force, which in relation to other units, had a massive kill ratio. This partly due to good tactics & also due to the overwhelming firepower of some heavily armed Casspirs & also the rifle fire from occupants inside. I don't however, see the intel value in bringing back bodies, .. prisoners for interogation I could understand. Was there any "head money" paid by the government for bringing in insurgents dead or alive ?

Are there any good Koevoet books out there ?

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PostPosted: 07 Jun 2010, 18:09 
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Thanks for the info in the PM W407594F :smt023

I've just bought "The Covert War" by Peter Stiff ... :D

I call exclusive books in Canal Walk & they don't have it, but checked on their systems & found 3 copies at the Airport branch & they can either order me one or I can go fetch ... so I go fetch ... only to get to the airport & find that exclusive books is behind the "check-in counters" ie no boarding pass then no exclusive books :shock:

Found a copy at the airport CNA .. so all ended well :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: 08 Jun 2010, 06:54 
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Kremlin wrote:
eesh, I thought it was a great pic showing the cammo ... did not see that. I'll remove the pic.
Cheers


Not bothered by it, this is war after all which is, as you know, by nature an unpleasant business. It must be said that he appears to be rather well secured, I'd speculate that he was affixed there before rigor mortis had had chance to set in properly.

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PostPosted: 08 Jun 2010, 09:13 

Joined: 07 Apr 2008, 11:50
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H1017412 wrote:
Kremlin wrote:
eesh, I thought it was a great pic showing the cammo ... did not see that. I'll remove the pic.
Cheers


Not bothered by it, this is war after all which is, as you know, by nature an unpleasant business. It must be said that he appears to be rather well secured, I'd speculate that he was affixed there before rigor mortis had had chance to set in properly.


Rigor mortis can take more than 24 hours to set in, depending on the temperature.
It would require refrigeration to achieve in less than 6 hours.


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PostPosted: 08 Jun 2010, 10:42 
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Roger the Dodger wrote:
Rigor mortis can take more than 24 hours to set in, depending on the temperature.


Au contraire, according to a friend of mine who is a GP (and happens to have been a medical officer during the Cuito Canavale campaign), the onset of rigor mortis can often be seen in the face about four hours after death. Apparently the body is usually immovably stiff after 18-24 hours and thereafter actually begins to soften. I wanted to show him the photo to have his estimate on the time since the individual's death - but it has been removed.

You are correct in saying that a cooler ambient temperature will hasten the onset of RM.

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PostPosted: 08 Jun 2010, 12:10 
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H1017412 - PM sent.

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PostPosted: 08 Jun 2010, 13:11 

Joined: 19 Oct 2005, 12:39
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Those bodies would have been placed there straight after the contact and then it would be off to a Base camp.

In the African heat forget about rigor you want to get rid of the corpse as fast as possible as within 12 hours the smell starts and the bowls start to blow up and when the corpse is moved very horrible smells come out.

Then the flies etc have also laid eggs in the wounds and eyes, mouth etc and maggots will start appearing around 24 hours after these have been laid which is normal within 15 minutes of death. This is used in forensic pathology to estimate time of death and it is over ten years since I dealt with corpses on a daily basis so the brain is slightly rusty. The Natal midlands from the late 1980's to late 1990's the death toll was booming and to attend to 5 murder scenes (some with multiple victims) in a day was nothing out of the ordinary.

Full rigor lasts for about 24-72 possibily 80 hours depending on many factors.

From my personal experince visible and feelable rigor starts setting in within 4-6 hours and within 10-14 full rigor mortis has set in. The speed depends on the temp etc but 12-14 max. Even on a hot day just being in the shade or in a gentle breeze helps. so travelling on the side of a Casspir will speed things up.

Just like the water bag attached to the front of a vehicle to keep the water cool, used alot in Norh Africa or Northen Cape

Slightly morbid subject but brings back memories good and bad.


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PostPosted: 08 Jun 2010, 19:37 
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From the saafnews yahoo group, posted by Manuel Ferreira. This should be a real good, man on the ground, read, & also a good way to support a veteran.

Manuel Ferreira wrote:
Shadows in the sand- a Koevoet tracker's story of an insurgency war

By Sisingi Kamongo and Leon Bezuidenhout

It is the story of a 18 year old Kavango tracker that served for six years
with Koevoet. In this book he tells the story of around 50 of the
firefights he was involved with. He survived 4 anti personnel mine
explosions and a RPG rocket on his car. He was wounded 3 times. The other
2 times he miraculously survived brushing the dust from his clothes.

He tells the story of the men on the ground, looking for the shadows on the
ground, facing heavy odds with mines and concealed terrorists always
somewhere hidden. He tells the story of the art of tracking. Where dust
could tell time. He tells a story where he could smell the presence of a
human- independently corroborated by some of the old Recces.

He tells about things never mentioned before, happening in the bushwar.

Sisingi Kamongo's story is supported by the stories of two Teamleaders.
Herman Grobler and Francois du Toit.

He wrote his story 20 years later while sitting in a wheelchair. The result
of his last Pomz incident. He stays in a shack in Limpopo and he is living
off a disability pension of R1000 per month. Nothing else. He has reason
to be bitter and he is not.

This is a powerful recollection of experience with South Africa's most
successful counter insurgency unit. Most white team leaders lasted only two
years. These trackers walked the tracks for years.

It is estimated that the book will be out by October 2010


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PostPosted: 09 Jun 2010, 03:36 
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I'm sure that will indeed be an interesting read Kremlin! Look forward to it...

Just touching back on the subject of the CASSPIR for a second, has anyone read the May issue of SA Soldier? Here is a linky: http://www.dcc.mil.za/sasoldier/2010/soldMay10.pdf

On page 29 there is an advert for the "GILA 4x4 MRAP" marketed by a company by the name of IVEMA?

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PostPosted: 09 Jun 2010, 10:05 
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I took some nice pics of this vehicle being demonstrated at the African Aerospace & Defence, in 2008. Seems IVEMA is a newish company started in 2000.

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PostPosted: 10 Jun 2010, 08:06 
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Just echoing what Wxxxxxxx said - here is the reply from my GP friend:

"Hi Ryan
He is fresh! In Namibia's heat bodies will start decomposing within a day of dying. The first sign usually is gas formation witch causes the body to get bloated."

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